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In this podcast episode, host Edith Nazarian is joined by Georgia King to explore strategies for trauma-informed lawyers, navigating trauma when working with immigration clients. Together, they discuss how to create a safe and supportive space, foster trust, and enhance case success by understanding the unique challenges trauma presents in client relationships.
Disclaimer: This video is for educational purposes only. The video is a general overview and is based on the opinion of Edith Nazarian. Every claim is distinct and the applicable law can vary from case to case and is dependent on multiple factors. This video is in no way intended as legal advice. This video does not create an attorney-client relationship.
Episode Transcript:
Edith: Welcome to the Client Connection, where we help attorneys and clients bridge the gap between them to help increase case success. I’m your host, Edith Nazarian. I am a criminal and immigration attorney based in Los Angeles. And today, we’ll be talking about trauma and how attorneys can help support their clients who have experienced trauma go through their applications.
To help me do that, I have a very special guest, Georgia King. Hi, Georgia, how are you?
Georgia: Hi Edith, I’m great, how are you doing?
Edith: Doing well. I’m so excited to have you here.
A little bit about Georgia. Georgia King is a therapist who specializes in providing mental health evaluations for immigration cases. For more than a decade, she has worked with lawyers throughout Los Angeles and Washington, D.C. to provide evaluations for a variety of immigration cases. She has appeared in immigration court numerous times as an expert witness and has been a guest speaker at Georgetown Law School and the Smith College School for Social Work.
Georgia also provides training to therapists around the country on how to provide effective and compelling immigration evaluations. She currently offers the only online directory exclusively for therapists with advanced training in this work. Through the directory, lawyers and immigrants are easily connecting with highly skilled clinicians nationwide. Georgia can be reached through the directory website, ImmigrationEvalTherapists.com.
We’ve been wanting to do this for quite some time, so I’m really excited to hear your thoughts on this topic.
Georgia: Edith, I’m so happy to chat with you today. I’ve known you for a few years now, like we’ve collaborated on different cases, we’ve taught some together, and I always love our time together. You’re just fantastic.
Immigration Psychological Evaluations
Edith: Likewise. And I feel the same about you. You’ve done some great evaluations for clients of mine who have experienced trauma, and I think this is a really important topic to talk about because we as attorneys, you know, we don’t have this training as therapists do, and we deal with clients who have experienced, in the immigration context, some serious issues and serious experiences, you know, whether it’s asylum, fleeing from persecution from their home country, whether it’s VAWA, where, you know, maybe somebody has faced domestic violence, or U visas, they’ve been a victim of a serious crime.
So I really feel like this topic is important. I’m just so happy to have you here.
Georgia: Edith, this topic is so close to my heart, certainly as a therapist and doing these immigration evaluations, it’s such a passion of mine. I’ve been doing this about ten, twelve years now, and where I got my start was in Washington, D.C. I had an office. I didn’t know about this work at all. I was just doing private practice. I was meeting mostly with teenagers for therapy. And then I needed a new office to see my clients.
The building that I ended up renting in was owned by an immigration lawyer. So I kind of accidentally ended up inside a law firm. I didn’t plan that. It was just a beautiful building, and I just asked if they had any offices for rent. So I was seeing these teenagers, and then the lawyers started asking me for psychological evaluations for cases, and that was how I got my start.
I was so surprised when I started talking to these lawyers, collaborating on cases. Y’all have the hardest work. I couldn’t believe how tough it was. I mean, I was seeing lawyers on the phone with clients in crisis like 24/7. It was like they were in a war zone. I was just like, How are you even doing this? And then what shocked me even more was how little they had had training or support around trauma.
So I’m so thrilled that we’re talking today. And I know even just in the bit that you and I have talked already, the strategies that we’re going to lay out are going to be so useful for lawyers who want to know more about trauma and how to be really effective and compassionate in interviewing clients.
Definition of Trauma
Edith: Yeah, thank you so much, Georgia. I agree. To get into it, maybe can you give us a brief definition of trauma? What is trauma from a clinical perspective?
Georgia: I love that we’re starting with the nuts and bolts. I think that’s the best way to start out.
So trauma can be defined a number of different ways, of course. There’s a definition that I like that says trauma is basically any threatening experience that overwhelms our ability to function. I like this definition because there’s some flexibility in it. It indicates how trauma can be very unique to each person.
We have a lot of factors that build in either resiliency or vulnerability to trauma. So if we had ten people who all experienced a similar event, they would experience it each differently. They would have different symptoms. Some would maybe find it highly traumatic because they have other vulnerabilities, and then others might experience it as less traumatic, or maybe not at all, depending on the particular factors that they have going on for themselves.
Immigration Trauma and the Application Process
Edith: Yeah, no, that’s really great because I think from my point of view as an attorney, right, we’re here to help clients through their applications. And oftentimes that trauma that they have experienced is a core part of the application. But what you just said about trauma—that in and of itself can inhibit a client from doing the application, potentially, because they have to access that trauma in order to do the application, write a declaration, for example, do an evaluation. So that’s really important, I think.
And I love that you define that for us because I think that’ll help us kind of address how we can potentially help clients navigate their applications. That’s really important to me, and that’s really what I want us to talk about is, you know, some strategies, right, that we as attorneys can have and implement to help our clients throughout their applications. Because, I know for me, it’s really important, my “why” is I don’t want to retraumatize my clients. But it almost feels like I have to.
Safety First
Georgia: There is something to that. I think that that’s actually an important starting place because, you know, one of the core tenets that I learned when I was going to school to become a therapist was, I guess, along the lines of do no harm. But bigger than that, I think that it was more about safety first. And the way that I feel like that applies here is what this person most needs in their life is to be able to live in safety in the U.S. if it’s an asylum case or a case structured like that. Or if it’s an extreme hardship waiver, they need for their family to stay together. That is the biggest purpose of what we’re doing.
And so I also find it tough where, you know, you’re having to get into this very traumatic material sometimes in just one or two sessions that I think that some level of retraumatization is likely at times. But at the same time, I think that when our vision is on that bigger goal of their safety in the world, then being able to stay in their home here in the U.S., that I think puts it in perspective and I think gives a little grace or little space, you know, with that element.
Edith: I think that’s great. Yeah, that really feels important to me because I think the “why”—why is a trauma-focused approach so important when it comes to working on these applications for these clients? And I think that’s exactly right. You know, we want to help them. Ultimately, at the end of the day, it’s helping the client. And so I love that you said safety first, right? So I think that’s great.
Signs of Trauma
Edith: So, Georgia, how can we maybe as attorneys notice if a client is going through trauma during a meeting, for example? How can we maybe—are there any signs? Are there any giveaways? I know you said trauma kind of affects each person in different ways, but maybe you can help guide us through some strategies that we as attorneys can use in our case.
Georgia: Absolutely. If I had to sort of nail it down to one answer, I’d say these strategies are important because PTSD symptoms can derail a session. PTSD symptoms can take over like a hurricane in a session and make it very, very difficult to get to the information that you need to get to, to build the case, to make the case as compelling as possible.
And PTSD can look a lot of different ways. And I’m actually curious if you’ve seen these things with clients or what resonates for you. I notice that I’ll meet with certain clients who are more dissociated. They’re more zoned out and kind of numb, and sometimes their presentation can be a little alarming, a little strange, and it might be a little robotic.
I worked with one gentleman a little while ago who, you know, he would be telling this really traumatic material but with no emotion. And something seemed off—the way that he was sharing. And that would be a more dissociated, numb, kind of zoned-out presentation.
On the other side, I’ll have clients who are overwhelmed with the feelings. So in the first category, that person is really cut off from the feelings. In the second category, the PTSD is showing up where they are overwhelmed by the feelings. So they may easily go into flashbacks. They have pressured speech where it’s hard for them to slow down. I’s like a runaway train of material. And it’s very hard for that client to stay present because they’re in flashbacks. They’re experiencing these memories.
And I wanted to circle back to something that you said, which was kind of this appreciation that we’re asking clients to go into traumatic material that typically they are trying to avoid. And I think that’s an important thing.
That’s actually a core tenet of PTSD. No matter what the presentation, a core tenet is that the individual is trying to avoid thinking about or talking about this material. So it’s a big ask that we’re doing here for a good purpose. But those are some of the ways that I see it present with clients that I work with.
Does any of that resonate for you or do you—can you relate to some of that?
Edith: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I feel like on the one hand, the first example that you gave, I feel like sometimes I’ll have clients who are very, very closed off. They’re very, very closed off, and they don’t share. Sometimes I remember that there was this one asylum case where we didn’t find out—I didn’t find out about the true trauma that happened to my client until, I’m not even joking, until his asylum interview.
Georgia: Oh, wow.
Edith: Yeah. And it was, you know, a very, very sensitive subject. He was—he was raped by the police in his home country. He was young. He was underage. And it was so traumatic for him that he just didn’t—he didn’t speak his truth.
I’m so thankful that he did, though, at the interview—prior to the interview—because we were, you know, I was able to encourage him. It’s important to share your whole story with the officer. You know, there’s a lot of shame that comes with that. A lot of, you know, maybe guilt. Right. But I always tell clients, you know, I know it’s really hard, but don’t be afraid to share everything with us, right?
Georgia: Yeah.
Edith: And sometimes I’ll even try to say, you know, if you’re not comfortable speaking with me about it, you know, is there someone else that you could feel comfortable speaking to? Because I think sometimes when, you know, they don’t talk, you think, Oh, well, they don’t really have a case.
Strategy to Deal with Traumatic Events: Written Statements
Georgia: Yeah, Edith, I’ve had so many cases like this. I love how you encourage clients and you—you tell them why it’s so important. I love that. That’s something I think about for myself as well—to really help them understand what it is we’re doing here, why it’s important to share.
I was going to say, and you may have used this technique yourself, but I find sometimes for the hardest cases, dealing with sexual trauma, this kind of thing, I have occasionally had a client ask if they could write it down because it was so hard to say the words. And so that’s a technique that I’ve brought in, you know, with other clients as well. Sometimes to give them that option. And we’ll get into some other strategies as well. But I love that you provide that kind of atmosphere and encouragement to help people share this.
And I think you’re really getting to why these strategies are so important, because this is—to ask someone to share about the worst thing they’ve ever been through. It’s such a big ask. It’s such a tough thing.
Edith: Yeah, no, it definitely is. And to the other end of the spectrum, right, Georgia, I mean, sometimes I’m so worried to say something that will trigger something in a client. Oh, my goodness. You know, I just, you know—and it’s sometimes not even the client themselves. Sometimes it’s their witness, right? Sometimes it’s a witness who is suffering extreme hardship or, you know, will suffer because the client won’t be here in the country anymore.
Georgia: Right.
Prepping for Testimony
Edith: And I just remember, you know, prepping a witness for court and just, you know, trying to be as gentle as possible. As attorneys, we want to know what the test is going to be.
Georgia: Oh, sure. Yes.
Edith: Right. We want to know how they’re going to testify. But then at the same time, you know, I don’t want to have them start crying on the phone. Right. You know, I don’t want to put them in that situation of stress. So that’s—that’s always a concern on my end—to not trigger something in them.
Georgia: It’s such a difficult thing. I know when I first started doing this work, it was so counterintuitive because my training—and I’m trained as a clinical social worker, and so when I was going to school for this, learning how to do therapy—when we talked about trauma, we talked about it as a many months, if not years, kind of endeavor. You know, it was a very long-term approach.
To do successful trauma work, generally, it’s a long-term kind of approach. So when I started doing these assessments, and I was—I realized I had two sessions with the client, it was so jarring.
Edith: Yeah.
Georgia: It was so jarring. It just was so counterintuitive to sit down and start asking about the hardest stuff. I’ve consulted with so many different clinicians and lawyers over the years, and that’s really what informs these strategies for how we can bring this trauma-informed, resiliency-based approach to this work, you know, as evaluators and as lawyers.
Tips for Trauma-Informed Attorneys
Edith: Yeah, that’s—that’s great, Georgia. I appreciate that so much.All right. So do you have any tips maybe for us as attorneys?
As we’re navigating these applications for these clients, how can we help? How can we help our clients not be retraumatized or maybe also in helping them bring out that critical information that we really need for the applications? And I think you touched a little bit about this already.
You know, I love that approach that you just mentioned about having a client write something out.
Georgia: Yeah, I see. I’m glad to touch on these. I was going to say, too, I think before we get into more of the nuts and bolts of the tools, I did just want to name something that really surprised me in my earliest years doing the work. Over and over, I’ve had clients say, “Oh, I actually feel better after talking to you.”
And now, that’s not always going to be the case. You know, certainly, you know, this material can be dysregulating. You know, often clients will have some stress or sadness or other tough feelings, you know, as they’re walking out the door. At the same time, over and over, I do hear clients say this, and I think these strategies can help try to optimize the conditions for a more positive outcome for the client.
And like we were saying before, to help lawyers use their time more effectively and efficiently. So, to get into more of the nuts and bolts here, I’ve broken this down into a few different categories.
So, I think about this as some strategies for before the session even starts, the beginning of the session, the middle, the end, and then afterwards. And that’s where we’ll talk about some self-care strategies.
Edith: Amazing.
Before the Session Starts
Georgia: Okay. So, a few tips for strategies related to before the session even starts. And I think of this as preparing the environment, and you and other folks listening may already have done some of these. And then maybe there’ll be a few things that are new or something you can consider.
So, it’s always good to have certain things on hand. Tissues, for instance—we have an emotional client, we’ve got to have tissues, pretty standard. I like to have bottles of water. I also find that there are a lot of folks dealing with PTSD symptoms who respond well if they have a throw pillow that they can put in their lap and kind of hug while they’re talking, having a throw blanket—like a blanket that they can put around themselves.
What we’re going to be getting at with these strategies a lot of times is how to help clients self-regulate. Because I think we talked about those two categories of clients earlier. Honestly, the ones that are more numb and dissociated, you know, there’s different challenges there because sometimes they’re maybe minimizing their emotions.
But honestly, it’s that second category that I think is more challenging, where the client is overwhelmed with the feelings because we need to get at the most important information, and their PTSD symptoms are really getting in the way.
So, I’m thinking through how can I help minimize those symptoms? How can I help the client self-soothe as much as possible? And I’m going to start that by having certain things in the office, like a throw pillow, like a blanket that they can put around themselves. And a lot of folks who struggle with PTSD can benefit from little fidget toys, like a stress ball or something like that. It helps them share. It helps them share material a little more easily.
It’s also useful to pay attention to lighting, to have more dim, indirect lighting—not too dark, but we don’t want to have people feel like they’re in the spotlight. That makes it harder to share. So, having just lighting that’s a little dimmer so that they can feel a little more comfortable.
Does this make sense?
Edith: That makes total sense. And I love it so much because, you know, I have the tissues ready, right? That’s the one thing that I definitely have. But I love how you just described how to make the environment so much more comfortable for the client, to make it easier for them to share with you.
And it all just makes perfect sense. It’s such common sense. But, you know, I don’t think, you know, we as attorneys, we weren’t told, “Oh, you know, if you have an emotional client, try, you know, bringing a throw pillow or,” you know—so.
Georgia: Oh, I’m so glad. I’m so glad. I’m hoping that those can be useful for folks.
The second category that I focus on before the session even starts, I want to focus some on myself. And we’ll talk some here about, in psychology, we talk about it as the “use of self,” like the use of myself in the room.
And I find over and over that when I can come into the session from a very warm, calm, supportive place, this is going to help the client actually self-soothe. This is going to help them share. It’s going to help them regulate their emotions.
I’m channeling as much as I can this inner calm, supportive presence, and it’s contagious. They call this emotional contagion. I think it’s such a fantastic concept.
Isn’t that such a cool idea?
Edith: That’s so cool.
Georgia: And it makes sense. You know, we all experience this in different areas of our lives, and it absolutely applies here. By bringing this out in myself, I’m actually helping them. They’re catching this from me, this feeling of calm, supportive, warm—this approach.
Edith: That’s so true, Georgia. Now that you say that, it really makes me remember, you know, times when clients just feel just more comfortable to share if you also feel really open and calm yourself. Because if you feel agitated or if you’re stressed, I mean, that’s just—and the other person is stressed—and it’s just going to create this, you know, stress-ball environment that is just not conducive to anything.
Georgia: And I know this is a big ask. I mean, often you’re going from client to client to client. I know that this is not necessarily, you know, the easiest, most intuitive thing, but I wanted to stress here why it’s important—how our use of self can actually help our clients share more easily, more accurately.
Let me just make a little footnote there, because I said this a couple of times about accuracy. One of the things about PTSD is that it really can inhibit our ability to recall events accurately, especially when it comes to chronology, dates—things that can be very, very important, of course, for somebody’s case.
They call it the faulty nature of traumatic recall, and there are different reasons for this. But I sometimes think of it like—if I’m being chased by a bear, I’m not going to be able to answer your questions very well. If somebody is asking me multiplication questions or something, there’s cortisol, there’s adrenaline, you know, there’s all this going on.
And so if those are getting activated in the session, you know, for the client, it’s going to make it so much harder for them to recall things accurately. So that’s just part of how trauma works, how PTSD works. And so starting here with myself, bringing this warm, calm presence into the room, I’m setting the stage to help the client self-soothe, to regulate.
Edith: Yeah. No, I think that’s great, Georgia. And I think what you’re saying just brings to mind in me just being really intentional, right? With our practice—really thinking about the client, what they’ve gone through, and how we can help them.
And to do that, we really should be intentional with how we approach the meetings, right? So beforehand, during—and I just love that what you’re saying goes exactly to that.
Georgia: I’m so glad. I know I find it useful for myself, and I think, you know, it’s not a rocket science kind of thing. I think it’s often very simple, like just taking that extra two minutes beforehand to breathe, to center. Sometimes folks have a little meditation or affirmation or something that they can come back to, or focusing on the senses, you know, just being present yourself.
Because that’s something that we’ll get into a little bit—we want to help the client stay present. PTSD, flashbacks—that’s somebody leaving the present and getting swept up in the past. So by being present ourselves, we’re helping the client catch that from us and regulate themselves.
And we’ll talk in a little bit more about self-care because that ties into—how do we channel this warm, calm kind of sense?
Oh, because I was going to say too, with the emotional contagion idea, of course, it goes both ways. So the clients, you know, catch this from us, but then we also catch it from our clients, often. Especially if you’re a sensitive kind of a person, it’s likely that you may feel kind of dysregulated after a very intense session. Sometimes clients are cut off from their feelings, and I’ll feel them a lot. I’m like, Why do I feel so angry and sad after that session? The client was like a robot. Why do I feel all this stuff?
So sometimes I think we even catch more repressed emotional material. So that’s where in a minute we’ll get into some more self-care strategies because it is important for us to take care of ourselves so that we can show up how we want with our clients.
Edith: Yeah, I love that, Georgia. I’m all about attorney wellness—taking care of ourselves so we can in turn help our clients, right? I feel like it’s a circle.
Georgia: Absolutely, absolutely.
Edith: That’s great. Okay, so how about after the session? Do you think there’s anything that we can do to maybe help the clients since we’ve touched on before and during?
Is there something—because I’m just thinking, you know, touching base with the client afterward or maybe sometimes, too, if a client who I know has gone through something sends me an email, sometimes I’ll pick up the phone and call them, right? Just to make sure I can speak to them personally.
But do you have any tips?
During the Session
Georgia: Absolutely. And you know what? Let me actually touch on a couple of other ideas for during the session or how we can—because we’ve talked some about preparing the environment, preparing ourselves.
And then I think of the next step as being preparing the client for what it is that we’re going to be doing. And you touched on this earlier when you were talking about the male client that you were working with and how you encouraged him and you let him know why it was so important to share.
I do something very similar. I think it is very useful to kind of prep the client at the beginning, explain what it is that we’re doing, why we’re doing this, and also something along the lines of, “Look, I’m going to be asking you a lot of questions here today, and some of this may be tough to talk about, but the reason why I’m going to be asking you all these questions is that I want to help you have the most compelling, strongest case possible so you can stay here in the U.S. and be safe.”
Edith: Yes, I completely 100% agree. And these are things that I myself tell clients during a consultation or during a meeting as well.
Georgia: Absolutely.
Edith: So totally awesome.
Georgia: You know, I was consulting with a colleague who also really specializes in trauma, and she had this beautiful idea that I haven’t done before, but I’m going to do in the future. Her suggestion was, you know, after giving that little spiel to the client, saying, “Hey, I’m going to be asking you all these questions so your case can be as compelling as possible. These might bring up tough material. Is this all right with you?”
And this really caught me off guard when my colleague brought this up. I thought that was actually quite beautiful and powerful—to take that tiny moment to just say, “Is this all right with you?” Certainly, it’s very respectful. It’s also really empowering. Part of how trauma works is that it’s all about being disempowered, right? Things being out of your control. So this is a moment where you’re giving this element of power and control back to the client and asking their permission before continuing.
Isn’t that a lovely idea?
Edith: I love that. I love that so much. And you brought up something just now about empowerment for a client, right?
That reminds me of a client that I had who I applied for VAWA for. She was married to a U.S. citizen who was very abusive to her, and I felt like in going through the sessions with her at our meetings, I could feel like it was really affecting her to go over all the information again.
At one time, she said she was having health issues and felt like the original trauma had caused these health issues to arise. And she felt like in going over it again, it was causing them to flare up again.
And I stopped her and I said, “You know, I want you to think of this now, not like you’re a victim, but I want you to think of this as your tool to get status in this country. We are taking whatever this person did to you, and now we’re using it.”
Georgia: Yes, that’s right.
Edith: “He can’t do anything to you now, right? That’s in the past. Now you’re using him to help you get status.”
Use of Self in the Room
Georgia: Love it. I love this so much. I love this so much.
And Edith, you’re also demonstrating the use of self in the room, because even just you saying this right now, just describing this—it’s so powerful, it’s so empowering. It’s also so much in the present moment. Like if I was your client and I was sitting with you, if I was sort of dissociated or in flashbacks or kind of off in my own world with the trauma, you’re bringing me back.
You saying that—“Look, this is your chance to be empowered, to use what happened to you, what he did to you, in this empowered way that’s going to help you keep yourself safe”—that is electric. I mean, I feel it just in how you’re talking. And you’re demonstrating this beautiful use of self, like you’re helping the client stay in the present with you in the room.
And that is huge in minimizing PTSD and helping them share more easily.
Edith: Yeah. Thank you, Georgia. That’s really what I wanted to get across, you know, to the client. So it’s very validating.
Sense of Control for the Client
Georgia: I was going to add a couple of things here too. I think we can also use language at the beginning of the session, encouraging the client: “Hey, if you need to get up and walk around the room or use the restroom, you can always do that, and you get to take care of yourself.”
So I’m again just sort of giving them a sense of control here.
Help Your Client Be Present by Interrupting
Georgia: I also want to talk about this a little bit, and I’m curious if this has been your experience—with the clients who are flooding with emotion, who are so connected with the feelings they can be kind of off in their own world. I find that it’s useful for me in the session to interrupt them and help them be in the present.
I feel like in that kind of situation, the worst thing I can do is to just say, “So tell me what you’ve been through,” and then let them spin out more and more over 20 minutes. Do you know what I mean? Have you had clients like this where you can feel that?
Edith: Yeah, I’ve definitely had clients who are just overcome with emotion. Definitely. I think that’s a great thing to think about—bringing them back to the present instead of having them spiral.
Georgia: Exactly! Exactly. And I know for myself that it’s important with these clients during the session that I interrupt them, and I’m somebody who hates interrupting people. So what I do is, I do this kind of across the board with clients where at the beginning, I’ll say, as part of my spiel, “Look, we’re going to need to cover a lot of material, and it’s likely that I’m going to need to interrupt you. I’m so sorry in advance. I hate interrupting people, but I want to let you know that I’m going to be interrupting because it’s so important that we cover all of the material that we need for your case.”
Because sometimes—you’ve probably had this experience—sometimes the client wants to keep talking about certain areas that are quite painful but actually aren’t as relevant for their case. And I need to interrupt them somehow, gently and respectfully, and ask them about certain other things that I have to get to.
So I find that just prepping them beforehand, letting them know that I will be interrupting, gives me permission to then go ahead and interrupt. And it often is more effective and more humane because it helps them stay in the present.
You were naming this before—how to help them stay in the present. I’ll ask questions that are more specific rather than open-ended, interrupting and directing the conversation. I’m really leaning in and being present myself, being more hands-on. Sometimes I’ll ask yes/no questions. I just—I want to keep it as a back and forth. I don’t want them to go into a trauma monologue. It’s not going to be good for them. It’s not going to help me get the material that I need.
Edith: I love what you just said, Georgia, because it’s so compassionate, right? And it also helps to be effective, right? It helps us as attorneys get the information that we need. But in prepping them beforehand, we’re also showing them respect, right? And we’re letting them know, “Look, what you’re saying is important, and we want us both to work together to create as strong a case as possible.”
Because a lot of times, I feel like, “Oh, if I interrupt somebody as they’re talking, they might be offended,” right? Because they feel like, “Oh, well, I was speaking. I was explaining something.” But if you tell them beforehand, “Look, this is the reason why,” then they understand. So you mitigate that.
Georgia: Oh, I’m so glad. And I think you know this intuitively—it’s possible to do that interrupting in a gentle, compassionate kind of way. That’s what we’re going to be aiming for. And because they already have that heads-up, it just gives a different context.
I think, in a similar way, if I’m sitting with a client and I see that they’re getting more and more emotional—often we call it “pressured speech,” like their speech gets faster with this kind of PTSD response—I’ll often kind of call a timeout, you know, a little like, “Timeout,” and just ask them to pause a moment.
And I might just acknowledge, “I know this stuff is kind of hard to talk about. I want to see if you can kind of bring yourself into the room more, if you can be a little more present with me here in the room.” Because sometimes tough material can try to suck us in, and we want to keep you here in the room as much as possible.
So I want to interrupt the PTSD response before it gets more full-blown. Does that make sense?
Edith: That makes perfect sense. That’s so great.
Georgia: I know in court, a lot of times the judge will take a break.
Edith: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. And in that kind of moment, you can always do something really simple—ask the client to focus on their senses, to focus on a couple of things that they see in the room. Maybe focus on the feeling of the chair under them, anything that they smell or taste, anything they hear. Just to get them back in their body, back in the room, more present.
Edith: That is so great. I love that. I love those tips because I think being present is so important. You really don’t want them going back into the past and kind of being stuck there. So having these tricks—how can I become more present? Just feeling, right? And just observing with their senses what’s going on.
Respond with a Warm, Calm Tone
Georgia: Oh, I’m so glad.
A couple of other things that I think about when it comes to this middle part of the session… and then we’ll look at the end of the session and then afterwards.
I know something that I learned over the years is just the importance of responding with this warm, calm tone no matter what the client shares. You know, sometimes we’ll have a client who shares very shocking material, very appalling material. They might share it with no sense of feeling about it. And I know for me that can sometimes actually be quite unsettling because someone has no emotional connection to the material and then they’re sharing just really very painful, shocking experiences.
Now, what I don’t want to do is say, “Oh my God, I can’t believe that happened to you,” or I don’t want to show any surprise. I don’t want to mirror back to them how appalling it is—what it is they lived through—because they might be functioning day to day the best they can because they’ve put those feelings in a box. They’ve locked those feelings away, and it could be pretty destabilizing to them if I reflect back kind of the appropriate level of feeling in response to what they shared. Does that make sense, that kind of moment?
Edith: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. In those types of cases, how do you respond? What is your response to them if they’re saying that?
Georgia: I do a lot of kind of empathic listening, you know, kind of phrasing back or just sort of reflecting, “I hear you,” you know, maybe asking some follow-up questions. I think a lot of it’s not about the words we use even as much as just continuing to have this warm, calm tone and just not registering surprise.
So just sort of calm. If someone’s sharing “my brother was shot in front of me and there was blood all over my feet,” you know, just sharing some of these really graphic, painful details—and I’m just right there with them, just being calm and present. I’m probably typing on my laptop as I need to. I also prep clients about that beforehand, too. “I’m so sorry. I’m going to have to be typing. I’m still listening. But for your case to be as strong as possible, I need to be typing.”
So I’m just conveying this sort of calm, no-surprise, matter-of-fact sort of tone in response to whatever it is that they’re sharing.
Edith: I see. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Thank you, Georgia, for that. Any other tips that you have?
Georgia: You know, I think those are the main ones that I think about. I think we’ve touched on a lot. And, you know, one phrase that I’ll use sometimes, you know, if somebody is having trouble sharing about something, it’s very painful or emotional—
I might say, “Take your time. I know this is tough.” Just something that shows them that I get it. I get that we’re really in the weeds here, that these things are tough, you know.
And it’s such an intuitive kind of thing because with a certain client that might be useful—if they’re someone who’s more cut off from the feelings, that’s maybe good, that encouragement to pause and acknowledge the emotion.
On the other hand, if somebody is too connected to the feelings, I might do the opposite. I might interrupt them or say, “Hey, why don’t we pause here for a moment?” Because I know this is tough. So it’s all about—am I seeing them escalate? Or is it more like they’re coming from a zoned-out, numb place? And it’s actually good that they’re expressing a little bit of the feelings.
So it’s all about that connection with the client and kind of seeing where they’re at and what needs to happen.
Edith: Yeah, I love that. I love being able to assess where a client is at and giving them what they need at that point in time.
Number of Sessions and Whether to Meet In Person
Georgia: I think that’s really useful as well.
So then we’re getting to, let’s say, the end of the session with the client, and I have a couple of thoughts about how to approach sort of ending the session.
And let me also add—I’m curious, Edith, with your role, do you often meet with the client several different times? Or is it usually like one session where you’re trying to get most of the information? What does that look like for you?
Edith: For me, in my practice, I often see clients multiple times, and I find that, especially with these kinds of cases, I prefer to see the clients in person.
When we’re talking about really serious issues, traumatic issues, I want them in the office, and I’ll often tell them—because they might say, “Oh, we want to do telephonically,” and I’ll say, “Actually, I think we should meet in person. I think that would be better.”
But I meet with them multiple times, getting their declarations down, and I usually do the declaration after I receive the evaluation. I refer them to get an evaluation, and then I will use the evaluation to help form the declaration.
Georgia: That’s great. Yeah, that’s really great to hear. I love that you do this when possible with the in-person session. I think that is so useful.
And we talked earlier about use of self, and when you’re in the room physically with somebody, that goes so much further. You can certainly do it on Zoom or what have you, but in-person I think is even better. I think there’s even more of that emotional contagion where we can bring our sense of calm, and they can internalize that and self-regulate more. I love that you meet multiple times.
I know for myself, with the psychological evaluations, I usually meet with them twice, and I try, when possible, to not ask as many detailed questions about the trauma in that first session. I find that in the second session, there’s more relationship that’s been built, there’s more trust, and they’re able to share a little more easily about some of the details of what they’ve been through.
Edith: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
End of the Session
Georgia: So a couple of tips for the end of the session. I think that it’s really important to try to give a little bit of closure to the session for the client, kind of help them contain any feelings that have come up and sort of prepare for the next part of their day.
I don’t want a client to be sharing, and emotional, and tearful, and then for me to say, “Okay, time’s up, I’ll see you next week.”
That’s a horrible feeling because it’s like their heart is exposed and they’re in the feelings, and then I’m just saying, “Okay, get out the door.” I don’t want to ever do that.
So I’ll have my eye on the time, you know, 10 minutes before the end of the session or thereabouts, if possible, I’m going to try to start winding down. I’ll ask questions about, “What does the rest of your day look like?”
That’s a great question in terms of just transitioning from focus on the past to more of the present and the future.
Georgia: I might also just name that it’s common for clients to feel some stress or sadness after talking about these things. “Are there any ways that you can take care of yourself? Do you have anyone you might call or music you might listen to or an activity or something that might help you feel a little better?” They may or may not be able to name things, but just the fact that you’re helping them try to think in that direction, you’re showing that you care, that you care about what comes next for them.
I think it just helps strengthen the alliance between the two of you, the relationship as well.
Edith: Yeah, I love that tip, Georgia, because I feel like it’s so compassionate, right? And so conscious of the other person, of your client, because you are taking care of them. We are taking care of our clients, and being conscious of even how we end a session and how they’re feeling is so important in building the rapport between the two of you and the next session, right?
Because I really do feel like how you make someone feel is so important. If you make them feel safe, if you make them feel heard and cared for, they’re going to remember, and they’ll be more open to share with you about what’s going on in their lives.
Georgia: I love what you just said, and I feel like that’s absolutely true. It’s going to help them share a little more easily, maybe even more effectively or accurately.
And they want to refer you to their friends and family. Like, that’s the kind of lawyer, the kind of provider that you want to refer to everyone you know, because clearly, they care. They give a crap, you know, that’s coming through. I think what’s compassionate is often also really good business. And that’s the kind of business that I want, you know. I want it built on humane, compassionate, and effective strategies that help. It helps win cases. It helps get referrals—all of the above.
Edith: Yeah, Georgia, you’ve done amazing evaluations for some of my clients, which is why I send everyone to you.
Self-Care for Attorneys
Georgia: Well, I wondered with that, Edith, if we could shift gears a little bit and maybe look at the self-care piece or look at vicarious trauma or kind of how the work can impact you or how it can affect burnout. If you don’t mind sharing, what do you notice for yourself? I’m curious how your journey has been with self-care and burnout.
Edith: Yeah. So as I was saying earlier, Georgia, I really truly believe in wellness, in having attorneys care for themselves so that they in turn can care for their clients. I strongly believe that. So when I can, I take time to relax over the weekend. If it’s work and I’m feeling tired, maybe, you know, there was a tough session or something, I will take a break.
I will give myself time to give my body a break, maybe step outside, because I’ve learned that if I push myself, you know, sometimes I have this mentality of, “Okay, just do, do, do,” right? Just push through it. Get through it. Productivity, right? But doing that is not the most efficient. And we were talking about how can we be more efficient? How can we be more effective? And I just find that whenever I push myself, it never worked out where I was feeling more rejuvenated.
Georgia: Yes.
Edith: I’m usually feeling more tired and less motivated. So I just listen to my body, I think that’s what I do the most—I just listen to how I’m feeling.
And I think that goes great with what you were saying in this feedback loop that we’re giving to our clients. If I’m stressed out, if I’m having a hard day or something, and I go to a meeting, and I have a client who’s experienced trauma, they’re going to feel that, right? And I absolutely don’t want to do that. So giving myself the time that I need to refresh really helps me in serving my clients.
Georgia: Oh, I think you put that so beautifully, Edith. You know, as we are compassionate towards our clients, we also need to be compassionate with ourselves. So I love what you just said. That is something huge that I completely agree with.
Sharing Experiences with Other Attorneys
Georgia: I’m so glad. One last strategy that I want to emphasize here when it comes to the self-care part, and I’m curious if you’ve had this experience, but I know for me, especially in the earliest days when I was starting to do these psychological evaluations, it really helped me to have other clinicians that I could consult with every so often, to share about cases.
So much of it was so shocking in the early days, especially the stories. This is where I just have so much respect and empathy for immigration lawyers because you all are dealing with some of the hardest material that I’ve encountered in my clinical work. These stories often are so painful to hear. And I know for me, when it comes to decreasing burnout and just feeling more invigorated with the work, being able to sit in a group, ideally in person if possible—but Zoom if that’s not possible—to be able to sit and share some of what these stories are and how they impact us, or what comes up.
I was so shocked when this client said this thing, but I was trying to not look shocked in the session because I didn’t want to freak them out. But to have a place where I can say, “I cannot believe they just said that,” and to have that kind of very authentic reaction with your peers who can relate and chime in with their own stories, I think that can go a huge way. At least it has for me and other clinicians and providers that I know in decreasing burnout and just helping the work be sustainable.
Edith: Yeah, that’s great. I think that’s so important. There are a few organizations that I’m a part of—American Immigration Lawyers Association is one, L.A. County Bar Association is another. And within them are immigration attorneys, and we can connect with each other and talk about cases. I’m actually part of the wellness teams on both. And I think, yeah, just getting together and talking about it, having support groups and systems.
I think you’re bringing up a lot of great points because as attorneys, I think it’s so valuable to reach out to each other to gain information and help each other with the cases that we have and strategies. And we’ve talked about so many great things.
Supporting Your Immigration Clients
Georgia: Edith, I love this. I love hearing your ideas about this as well. I feel like over and over during our session here, you’ve brought up firsthand examples of really bringing these kinds of tips to life and really showing up for our clients in such powerful ways.
I love how you practice. I mean, you know that I feel that. I do. I respect and admire you so much—really inspiring.
Edith: And thank you so much, Georgia. I just love the wealth of knowledge that you bring, and all the things that you discussed today I think are so crucial and important. And I think they’re going to help so many attorneys, especially attorneys who are just starting out in this field.
I think they’re going to get so much out of everything that you talked about. So thank you so much for all the information that you gave today.
Georgia: Edith, you’re welcome. Anytime. I always love talking to you. Your ideas just spark so much for me as well, and I just appreciate you so much.
Edith: Thank you. Likewise, Georgia.
Georgia, how can our viewers and listeners best reach you? What’s the best way they can get in contact with you to talk more about, you know, maybe questions that they have, or see if they can get help from you, or contact you about the evaluations that you do or the workshops, etc.?
Georgia: So people can always reach out to me through our online directory: immigrationevaltherapists.com. This directory is also a great resource. If you are a lawyer and you’re looking for a therapist to provide a psychological evaluation for a case, I’ve trained many therapists around the country in all 50 states at this point, and we’re on this online directory.
So it’s easy to connect with someone who’s had advanced training for these psychological evaluations. I’m also going to be putting a blog post on the site that covers a lot of the strategies that we’ve talked about today. So if you’d like to be able to glimpse this material in a written form, you can also check that out on the directory website.
Edith: Thank you so much. And to everyone listening, if you liked what you heard, please feel free to follow and subscribe. And if you have any questions or if you’d like to tell us how you felt about the episode, your thoughts, please contact me at podcast@enlawoffices.com.
Thank you. And until next time.