Women in Law and Work-Life Balance with Luiza Manuelian

In this episode, host and immigration attorney Edith Nazarian sits down with attorney Luiza Manuelian to discuss the unique challenges women face in the legal profession. From addressing inappropriate behavior in the workplace to balancing the demands of career and personal life, Edith and Luiza share their experiences and offer insights on overcoming these obstacles. Tune in for an honest and empowering conversation about resilience, advocacy, and what it takes to thrive as a women in law.

Episode Transcript:

Edith Nazarian: Welcome to The Client Connection, where we help bridge the gap between attorneys and clients to help increase case success. I’m your host, Edith Nazarian. I am a criminal and immigration attorney based in Los Angeles, California. And today we will be talking about women in the law, the challenges that women face, and how can we create a balance, and if that’s possible. To help me do that, I have a very special guest. Luiza Manuelian. Hi, Luiza. How are you?

Luiza Manuelian: Hello, Edith, nice to be here today.

Edith Nazarian: So a little bit about Luiza. Luiza Manuelian is an employment lawyer serving employers in the greater Los Angeles area and all over Southern California. Luiza represents employers in various employment related matters, including in class and representative action, wage and hour disputes, as well as before government agencies like the California Department of Fair Employment and Housing. She provides clients with general labor advice and counsels clients to ensure compliance with federal, state, and local regulations. Luiza also trains employers on sexual harassment, wage and hour compliance, and violence prevention in the workplace. She’s been practicing law since 2004 and along with being an attorney, she’s a wife and mother to two teenage children. Okay, so fun topic today. So excited to have you here.

Luiza Manuelian: Thank you.

Women in Law

Edith Nazarian: So women in the law, I’m really curious to know what your experiences have been, practicing, especially since you’ve been doing it since 2004. I’ve been doing it since 2012. And what kind of challenges, or stereotypes, you faced as you progressed in your career?

Progression of Attitudes toward Women Lawyers

Luiza Manuelian: It’s interesting because when I first started 20 years ago, I was about 25 years old. The challenges we had were very, very different than they are now. I think the expectation now is a little bit harder because women are expected to do everything. You’re supposed to be a great lawyer, great mom, great wife and daughter, and everything.

The challenge was a little different 20 years ago because when I first started, it was not that common to have female attorneys, especially in litigation. For my first position, I was hired as a law clerk in my third year of law school, and there were no female attorneys. So I was the first female attorney hired and then at…

Edith Nazarian: Where was that? Where did you law clerk?

Luiza Manuelian: Poole Shaffery. Later on, they hired me as an attorney. So when I first started as a law clerk, it was all men.

And then I went, took the bar exam. And when I came back after the bar exam, they had hired their female attorney. So when I started as an attorney… so I was the second attorney, female attorney. And then by the time, I was there for about ten years, then I became the first female partner with eight male partners. And it was a very inviting…. It was a great place to work. And all the men were very respectful and supportive.

But it wasn’t the case outside of the firm. Outside of the firm, it was a very different experience. Every time I went to depositions, they were like, “Oh, madam Court clerk, you get to sit here.” So it was a lot of inappropriate sexual comments. I was in San Francisco and this attorney that I knew, was a very well-known trial attorney—I did toxic tort litigation before. So I used to fly out to San Francisco to work cases—and this attorney saw me on the street and he literally just picked me up from my waist and just plotted a kiss on my lips and then put me down. It was like, “Great seeing you, Luiza! I’ll see you in court”

It was quite a lot of those moments that, you just, I don’t know, I think I froze in the beginning, but it happened quite often, so I just brushed it off and said, “Okay, well, it’s another day, you know, gotta keep moving forward.” So I don’t see that now, thankfully. But I did a lot of seminars with judges and I remember the female judges back then—so 20 years ago, they were in their sixties—and they were telling me stories of their experience, which was atrocious. They were forced to basically sleep around with people to get a promotion and all that.

So, I think progressively, we’ve gotten so much better. And even 20 years, if you think about it, it’s such a long period of time. But a lot has changed. And now I work at a firm where we’re primarily women here, which was quite exciting. You know, two of the three partners are women, and it’s very welcoming. Most of them are moms, that have kids. So, you know, I’m very happy to say a lot has changed.

How to Respond to Inappropriate Comments

Edith Nazarian: Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, I know from my own personal experience, there have been times when, for example, somebody might have thought, “Oh, you look so young. Can you do this job? Do you have the experience?”

Or, there are ideas about you just from how you look rather than what your actual abilities are? There’s so much of what you just said I want to dissect and look more closely into. But yeah, when these things happened to you, how did you create boundaries or did you learn to create boundaries? For attorneys who are listening, maybe they’re just starting out and they kind of want to know, “Okay, if something like this were to happen to me, what can I do? What is a healthy way,” because, for example, if you’re coming into a deposition and somebody’s just assuming you’re not the attorney. How do you respond to that?

Luiza Manuelian: I think it was different when you’re in your twenties and you’re really inexperienced with life and social settings of that nature, your natural response is, “Just say nothing. Pretend it didn’t happen, and just move forward.”

As you age, what you realize, with wisdom, is that you have to speak up and say something at that point, in a professional manner and just say that “I think that was an inappropriate comment that you made.” Now, in the case of a court reporter, I’ve said over time, in all fairness, though, in this setting it was like 20 men. Right. And then just me. So I can almost understand why they thought that, because I was the only female attorney at the time, in the room. Right. So they assume that.

But I would say, “I appreciate the compliment.” I would say, “I’m not that young. I am a lawyer. And I’m happy to be here.” So I choose to always look at it in a more positive way rather than just start attacking the attorney that’s making this assumption.

But that’s just my whole persona and my attitude in life is look for the positive, look for the light. Don’t go into fight mode, but stand up for yourself.

And there’s a delicate, fine line of doing that with a little bit of, in my opinion, class.

Edith Nazarian: Yeah. I think that’s so important because we are professionals.

Luiza Manuelian: Thank you. People sometimes, lawyers… You know, I had this discussion. I was telling our managing partner, sometimes opposing counsel, sometimes forget it’s a profession.

We have to be professional. We get lost in all of this. I want to win. I want to, you know, score a point against opposing counsel, but that does not last. Your reputation takes a long time to create. So you want to preserve that.

Sexual Harassment, Stereotypes, and Ageism

Edith Nazarian: Yeah. I love that you do trainings on this.

Luiza Manuelian: Wow. Well, yeah. The sexual harassment training is… I have to say, it’s one of the… it’s the most exciting part of being an employment law attorney. Telling people what is okay and what is not okay. And when there was a gray line, the stuff to say.

But, see, that’s the thing. So that applies to your coworkers, your employees. Most of the time, the harassment—like in my situation—it never came from my office. It always came from judges, it came from other attorneys, and sometimes clients. I’ve had clients make inappropriate comments.

Edith Nazarian: Knowing everything that you do know. And your experiences. How do you respond to that? Or how would you suggest or respond to that?

Luiza Manuelian: I learned from early on, especially with clients, because I had very large corporate clients. Corporate clients don’t look at young ladies in their twenties and necessarily show them the deference and respect.

In the beginning I would stay quiet, but then I learned that that’s not necessarily the proper answer either.

So I would talk about all the cases that I worked on, and I talked about the judges, and I talked about recent updates in case law and quickly veered that conversation into something more productive and more, that, I’m not about my looks, I’m not about my gender or my age, but rather, what is the focus here? Especially with a client, because you’re representing them. So I talk about strategy and defenses and what to anticipate if the case precedes to trial. But you veer the conversation right?

Edith Nazarian: I think that makes a lot of sense. I feel like, you know, even just going through law school, passing the bar, I feel like is a major accomplishment.

Luiza Manuelian: I think so. It’s not a small thing.

Edith Nazarian: Even if nothing else, that’s still, you know, just reminding the people that you’re around, you know, this is who I am and this is what I’m capable of and this is what I’ve done. And that’s a good way of just aligning people. Look, you can’t mess with me.

Luiza Manuelian: And, you know, it’s funny, when I tried to do networking events, I used to fly to different states and the first thing people said, like, “Oh, what are you?” I said, “I’m a lawyer.” And they’d say, “Oh, yeah, okay, toxic tort lawyer, sure, sure. Like, where are you from?” And I’d say, “Well, I’m originally, I’m Armenian.” “Oh, like the Kardashians.” So then, I quickly like, okay, “No, let’s not associate me with the Kardashians. I’m a lawyer.”

Let’s go back to, you know, but it’s almost like it’s not exciting for them to hear that you’re a lawyer or your experience. Like, I want to know more about you. You look exotic, or you look… it’s always going back to my look, which is funny, because if you were a guy and you were there networking, nobody would say, “You look exotic. Where are you from?”

So women have all these other things that I feel like men don’t really face. And I remember I come home and tell this to my husband, who’s also an attorney. But he’s still a guy. He doesn’t quite get it whenever I say these things.

Sometimes I’d cry because I’m like, “I don’t understand. I don’t get the attention that I want. I’m getting the wrong type of attention.” And his response was like, “Oh, I’m beautiful. And people are complimenting me.” And I said, “Well, the fact that you just said that shows that you’re a guy and don’t understand that I want to be taken seriously. And it’s very hard to do that when you’re young.” In a men’s, mostly everyone was all men.

Edith Nazarian: I mean, I remember my first criminal defense case. It was me and two other criminal defense attorneys. I was fresh out of law school, just newly minted, completely green. I was just so determined. I was so on it.

And the other two defense attorneys, you know, much older, you know, two older white male gentlemen. And the district attorney was also an older white male gentleman. Right. And then there was me. The newly appointed criminal defense attorney.

But, you know, I just looked at them. I just looked at the job that needed to be done. I said, okay, my client is in custody and he needs to get out of there. I was so focused.

I feel like when I spoke with the attorneys there, I just never considered a difference. The only time that I felt a difference was when I was having a meeting with the district attorney and one of the other criminal defense attorneys, and they were talking about whiskey. And at that time, I knew nothing about whiskey. They were laughing and I just looked at them, you know, I can’t contribute right now to this conversation.

But, you know, just was very focused to get the job done, which I did. I was able to get my client’s fees dismissed and that’s how I approached it. It was just, this is the job. It doesn’t matter who is here or who are the other attorneys, but it’s not always that easy. Sometimes there are stereotypes that come into play where people judge how you are just by how you look. And I mean, you were even talking about this a little earlier, Luiza. You know, if we’re not too soft, we might be too assertive, right?

Luiza Manuelian: There’s always an adjective. It’s not just you’re a lawyer. There has to be either, you’re too kind, and sometimes I think people can mistake kindness as weakness. And I think that’s the biggest mistake people make. And I love taking advantage of that because I am kind. But that kindness is not weakness.

Edith Nazarian: I love that you say that. I think it goes back to the description of being a professional and being civil because I love being kind to and I feel like sometimes, honestly, that is the best approach is just treating human beings like human beings, you know? With respect.

Luiza Manuelian: It works. 90% of the time. I will tell you, I’ve had some cases
with very aggressive opposing counsel, and sometimes they’ve pushed my buttons.
It takes a long time to push my button, but I have to push them and say, “Being aggressive does not equate to you being a great lawyer.” At the end of the day, we do what is in our client’s best interest and being professional and getting what you want from opposing counsel by being kind is the cheapest way to do it. Rather than go to court, file a motion to compel and all that stuff.

So, you know, having the tunnel vision of no, no, no, I got to win every argument. I think it’s the biggest mistake.

Edith Nazarian: And I really think that helps our clients, ultimately. The way to help our clients win their cases. And I think you just said, you know, you’re setting a boundary with them, you’re stopping it. As it’s happening, you’re saying, “You know what? No, you can’t say that or you can’t do that. That’s not right.” And as it’s coming up, you know, learning to stand up for yourself when you notice somebody is crossing the line or being unprofessional and, you know, nipping it in the bud instead of, like you were saying, possibly creating more work and, you know, it’s not the direct approach. Right, Right, right. Yeah, I think that’s really important.

Luiza Manuelian: So reading the opponent, reading, figuring out your chess pieces. How are you going to approach this? The chessboard? Which moves are you going to make first? Depending on who your opponent is, is I think is critical from the outset. And ultimately, it’s about your client. Like if I’m a defense attorney, right, It’s about billable hours. My goal is to limit those hours as much as possible. So if I don’t have to dispute every issue, yeah, go to court, quash a subpoena, all that stuff. If I have an agreement with opposing counsel from early on, my client benefits. So that’s how I choose to look at it. Everybody… and the judges appreciate you not going to court every 2 seconds because you’re disagreeing on whether or not the deposition should be in person. You know, all the little details. But I have to say, it only works 90% of the time. They’re always one or two attorneys who feel the need to, you know, be aggressive, in my opinion, unnecessarily.

Women in Law with Children and Work-Life Balance

Edith Nazarian: I hear that. I feel like you’ve had a lot of experience and different experiences throughout your career. Has it always been, would you say, easy handling it all?
Luiza Manuelian: Never. I don’t think it’s ever been easy. It’s easier now. It’s easier now. Not when I had my kids, I think it was probably the most difficult experience of my life trying to, you know, I was really trying to be a partner at my firm. And being like the young associate and nobody… the only other woman that was there, she didn’t have any kids. So I had planned on having kids and I didn’t know how to break the news that I was planning on having family because nobody else had kids, right? The men had kids, but they all had wives who were home taking care of the kids. So I remember I was second chairing my very first trial, which I worked so hard to convince the managing partner to run, because they wouldn’t allow associates to try cases at all. So I went and I was like, I can do this.

And then I found out I was pregnant. So I did not tell him I was pregnant. So while we’re doing voir dire, in between I’m running to the bathroom… And I didn’t tell him. He thought I was just sick. Maybe he thought it was, like, nervous and, you know, all the excitement. But I was pregnant, and I didn’t tell him. And then after the trial finished, then I told them, I said, “By the way, I’m pregnant.”  And he said, “Oh, now it makes sense why you were running to the bathroom.” I said, “I just want to tell you because I didn’t want you to think that I couldn’t do the job.”

And I worked until midnight. You know, I worked so many hours to prove that I can do it. And I think as women, we… at the time, so this was ten years ago. At the time, I felt like I have to do it so that other women can, you know, in a way, not that I’m some sort of a, you know, I’m breaking the glass door or anything like that. It’s more of, if I can do it, then they’ll see that other women can do it, too. And, you know, and I firmly believe women work so much harder. At least when I started, we all had to work twice as hard to prove that we can do the job. So, that added pressure. And then after I had my daughter, two years later, my son came. So then I was just struggling because I was flying to San Francisco three times a week and I was networking everywhere, trying, trying, flying, flying. And it was, it’s very difficult, especially since I don’t really have that much support. Family-wise.

Edith Nazarian: Do you feel like balance is possible? Do you feel like you are balanced or what is your relationship with that?

Managing Your Life Expectations

Luiza Manuelian: Obviously, all of us have a different definition of a balance. It depends on how much support you have at home. I can’t emphasize the importance of that right. Whether it’s cousins, in-laws, anybody that supports you, you need support. Not just physical, but mental, emotional support too.

And also, what is your own expectation from your life? How do you envision what your life would look like if you had your career and you had your children. What are your goals? How do you envision all of that? Because to me, I was very, I’m going to call it “not practical” because I was a perfectionist. So I thought I was going to be a partner at my firm, I was going to have two beautiful children, a husband who was very devoted and supportive. And for a while it looked that way. But I was breaking on the inside because it’s not realistic. It’s not doable to work so many hours a day and come home and wash dishes and formulas and all that stuff. And again, it was a very different time frame. There were no Zooms, there were no court calls and stuff. Everything was in person, depositions and stuff.

So there was a lot of flying around different parts of the country. Now, if I had to do it now again, right, let’s say we take back 20 years, it’s extremely doable. It is balanceable. And you don’t need to be a partner as soon as you start. You don’t have to go on the partner track, which was not something that… what I was processing at the time because I was ambitious and young. And sometimes it’s okay to put your career second. Shocker. News alert. That’s okay. Again, I didn’t comprehend that because I was very ambitious. And I had goals. I was going to do this by this age. I was going to buy a house and have a second kid and do this, do this. That’s what I’m saying, your expectation, where they are, is very important. So to find that balance. So if I had to do it again, I would lower my expectations. I’d put my career a little bit in the backseat and find a way to balance that.

I know it’s a general word, but balance is where you can find your sanity and you’ll be content with at the moment. Your kids are going to take priority in your career is going to be a little on the back side, but that does not mean you’re not going to succeed in life or in your career. So for me, now I’m working a lot of hours because now my kids are older, now I’m just having so much fun. Because they’re self-sufficient. My daughter drives, they drive everywhere together. They do all the after school activities, which gives me more time to work on my work. I focus on my job and focus on my clients. Now I have a balance. Took me a long time to be here. But, you know, that’s why I would give advice to younger attorneys who are planning to have children. It’s okay. It will be fine. Everything will be fine. What is fine is how you make it work, Right? And if you have a support system that, really, I can’t emphasize how important that is.

Edith Nazarian: Yeah, I agree. And what I really like that you said is, there are all these expectations. Whether it was from society or even you. Right. Putting it on yourself. These are all external. I feel like even your expectations are, to an extent, they come from an external place as well. And it just can be such a burden. But when we think about what our priorities are, like you were saying, you know, your family can take priority and career can take a backseat for a time. Right.

But I also feel like if you put too much pressure on yourself, that can lead to burnout. And then at that point, really, you’re not helping anyone. You’re not helping yourself, you’re not helping your family, and you’re definitely not helping your clients.

Luiza Manuelian: And you’re not living your life. You’re not enjoying life. Life is a gift. Every day is a gift. It should be a gift. Yes, we have tough days. We all have tough days. But every day is a gift. So if you start off with that and if something isn’t working in your balance formula, figure out what could be changed.

And if it’s a… this is a silly statement to make, but if it means driving a less fancier car, wearing less fancier clothes because you have to work less to be there for your kids, that’s okay too. Everything is okay. Find a balance that you are happy, you get up in the morning, you’re happy to be alive. To me, that’s a balance.

Edith Nazarian: I couldn’t agree more with that statement. I mean, as a solo practitioner, owning my own business. Right. In a way, I’m able to create my schedule and I’m able to create a sort of balance for myself. And I know for me, I try to keep work at work. I try not to work at home. Right? I think you mentioned, too, Luiza that, you know, when you’re home, you don’t you don’t work, right? You have a boundary. And I think that’s so important for your mental health. You’re saying you can be there for your family, right?

Being Present and Being Appreciative

Luiza Manuelian: Right, exactly. And my mental and their mental health, so that when I’m home, I’m mom. I’m wife. Mostly, mom because I have two teenage kids. So I was saying earlier, you know, when the kids talk to you, when they’re teenagers, they’re 17 and 15, you want to be present. You want to hear them and you want them to know they’re being heard. But then when I’m at work, I’m 100% working. I’m not texting, I’m not doing anything. I’m just working. So wherever you are, whatever you’re doing, be present in the moment and also appreciate that moment. I appreciate my work. I appreciate that I can do this work. I love what I do. When I’m home, I appreciate my kids because I know it’s very limited. They’re going to fly the coop soon, and then I’m going to be without kids at home. And that’s going to be… I’m not ready for that. But that day will come sooner than later, and I know.

But being appreciative, it makes you understand that everything is not forever. So even the tough days are not forever. That too shall pass.

Edith Nazarian: Yes, I love that you say that. It’s so true. They’re all moments. And being present, wherever you are in the moment with what you’re doing, I think it just will increase your quality of life and the quality of your work and the quality of your relationships.

Luiza Manuelian: Including your relationship with your clients. You know, because that’s a really important thing. I always, as an employment law attorney, my clients are employers, they’re people. People with who work really, really hard. To save every penny, to build their business, live the American dream. And then they get sued and then it’s all over. And they’re terrified and they’re petrified. And, you know, all the expenses and everything, especially when they feel they’ve done nothing wrong. So how I communicate with them and how I make them feel by listening and being present is extremely important because they want to be heard. It’s not about billables. It’s about being heard. And someone’s on your side.

Strategies for Work-Life Balance

Edith Nazarian: That’s so important. What are some strategies that you could share, at least that have worked for you, when it comes to balancing your life?

Luiza Manuelian: Oh, yeah. This is not maybe fit for everybody. My coworkers think I’m crazy when I say this. So early on, when my kids were little, I learned to get up about 3 – 4 hours before everyone else. So, 5:30, 5:45 I get up and then I do 20 minutes of coffee and alone time. No TV, no checking emails, just my Zen moment. I love my coffee in the morning. When I smell that coffee and I’m like, okay, this is me. And then I try to, you know, getting like a 15, 20 minute workout so I can get my strength and my physical… which also goes into your mental health.

Then I, you know, I used to pack lunch and stuff for my kids. Now I don’t do that, which gives me a little bit more time. And then I get to work around 7:30, 7:00 – 7:30. I’m early so I can get as much done as possible so that by the time the kids come home. Again, my goal is to do as much as I can before they’re awake. And when I get home, I’m just for them. So that to me, that’s my balance, is like sleeping a little less. But having time for myself also. That’s really important. Otherwise, you know, there’s no me time. Even on the weekends. I do that on the weekends. I get up, I work out, I drink my coffee, I have my… you know, I read silly things sometimes just to get my, you know, my mind away from like the lawyer mode, I call it. Or the mom mode. So that’s kind of how I do it.

Edith Nazarian: Yeah, I really love that. I think alone time is so important because it kind of helps you center. And reconnect with who you are and what you’re doing and why you’re doing what you’re doing.

Luiza Manuelian: Why you’re doing it. Exactly. Because we get lost in the day to day running, especially as lawyers. So many fires to put out. Oh, but this, this, this and then you kind of, you do the same thing every day. It’s like Groundhog Day. You don’t want to do that. You want to center yourself. And why am I doing this? All of that.

Edith Nazarian: Yeah, absolutely. So finding time just to be with yourself. I mean, I like to journal in the morning. I also, you know, when I’m at work, I’m at work, you know, I take care of that. And then when I go home, that’s when I kind of try to unwind. And I feel like I really need that time for myself and, you know, doing different activities, exercising, I think physical, you know, along with the mental, I would say release or exercises that we can do… meditation or just breathing even, I think is huge. But I think also when you’re saying, you know, just exercising and just getting it out physically.

Luiza Manuelian: And it really says endorphins. So it’s absolutely tied to your mental health. Which will make us better lawyers, better moms, better spouses, better daughters, everything.

Final Thoughts on Work-Life Balance for Women in Law

Edith Nazarian: Yeah, I love that. Do you have any final thoughts that you want to share with maybe the listeners about, you know, advice as to either being a woman in the law or balancing or because I’m sure there are some people listening right now who are just thinking, how can I do it? How can I have, you know, my work, how can I start a family? How can I preserve the time that I have with myself?

Luiza Manuelian: So it’s interesting you say that. There’s a great organization called the Armenian Women’s Bar Association. They were talking about that. The balance was a big conversation. And one of the young, she was a law school student, and she said that she didn’t want to go into litigation because she wanted to have a family. And she didn’t feel that being a litigator. So she wants to do transactional because she didn’t think that she could balance it with, you know, having a family. And so there were a bunch of litigators on the panel that were talking about this. And one, out of all of them, only one of them had a kid. And I thought about this and I said, that’s so interesting because that is an interesting topic to discuss because, I mean, she’s being smart. She’s saying, like, I’m thinking about, this is going to intervene.

My answer is, first, you should do what you love. Because I feel like if you’re doing transactional, it’s so different from litigation. And if that’s the kind of lawyer you are, then pick what you are interested in, number one, don’t pick it based on family. Two, again, it’s okay at some point to put your kids first, have your career in the back seat. Maybe you don’t do that many trials. Maybe when you’re in trial, you and your spouse and your family can help each other out during that process. That’s what my husband and I did. We made sure that both of us were not in trial at the same time because that would be disastrous.

But other things that you can do is, ultimately, figure out—this is going to sound super cheesy and corny—but like, literally journal every day, what can you do in those hours? And are you going to be happy doing that many things? And if the answer is no, then don’t do it. Don’t do it. Be realistic. So your expectations, it goes back to full circle of your expectations. But start off with lowering your expectations, but yet keeping your goal in mind. So you might not achieve that goal within the next two years. It might take you five years, it might take you six years. Either way, it’s okay. So it will always work out if you’re focused on it, you’re kind, and you’re receptive to the environment you are in, it will ultimately work out.

Edith Nazarian: I love that. Thank you so much, Luiza. This was such a wonderful discussion. If our listeners want to contact you, what’s the best way they can reach you?

Luiza Manuelian: Probably LinkedIn or they can email me, luiza@landeggeresq.com, or call me, (310) 500-8693.

Edith Nazarian: Amazing, Thank you so much. This was lovely.

Luiza Manuelian: Thank you for having me. It was fun.

Edith Nazarian: Thank you everyone for listening. If you have any comments, feel free to contact me at podcast@enlawoffices.com. We’re happy to have you here. If you like what you heard, please be sure to follow and subscribe for more. Until next time.